Comments on: middle managers in christendom http://www.somestrangeideas.com/2004/10/10/middle-managers-in-christendom/ theophile | bibliophile | technophile Sat, 22 Nov 2008 08:27:21 +0000 http://wordpress.org/?v=2.6.2 By: john http://www.somestrangeideas.com/2004/10/10/middle-managers-in-christendom/#comment-184 john Mon, 11 Oct 2004 16:02:46 +0000 http://www.subvergence.org/wordpress/?p=80#comment-184 I hereby coin the term <i>organicization</i> as my official term for what the church should look like. Now...to define it... I hereby coin the term organicization as my official term for what the church should look like. Now…to define it…

]]> By: pastor draven http://www.somestrangeideas.com/2004/10/10/middle-managers-in-christendom/#comment-183 pastor draven Mon, 11 Oct 2004 14:52:31 +0000 http://www.subvergence.org/wordpress/?p=80#comment-183 Without the personal, there would be no organizational. The organization is healthy when it is the outcome of personal relationship and like-vision, not the other way around. A <a href="http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=bureaucracy" target="_blank">bureaucracy</a>, however, is not the result of community. Hierarchical authority does not perpetuate community, but rather tends to lead to power posturing and various forms of abuse. - at least in a bureaucracy. I would much rather be met with a commune than a bureaucracy, though I am uncomfortable with both. Without the personal, there would be no organizational. The organization is healthy when it is the outcome of personal relationship and like-vision, not the other way around. A bureaucracy, however, is not the result of community. Hierarchical authority does not perpetuate community, but rather tends to lead to power posturing and various forms of abuse. - at least in a bureaucracy. I would much rather be met with a commune than a bureaucracy, though I am uncomfortable with both.

]]> By: Gary http://www.somestrangeideas.com/2004/10/10/middle-managers-in-christendom/#comment-181 Gary Mon, 11 Oct 2004 04:32:49 +0000 http://www.subvergence.org/wordpress/?p=80#comment-181 I agree with that last comment. Bringing people to Christ has almost become synonymous with bringing people to church. It's good to remember that while church is a part of Christianity. The two are not equal. I agree with that last comment. Bringing people to Christ has almost become synonymous with bringing people to church. It’s good to remember that while church is a part of Christianity. The two are not equal.

]]> By: some dude http://www.somestrangeideas.com/2004/10/10/middle-managers-in-christendom/#comment-179 some dude Mon, 11 Oct 2004 03:39:23 +0000 http://www.subvergence.org/wordpress/?p=80#comment-179 Thats a great question. There is obviously a tension between the two, but I definitely lean towards personal...as I guess many people do. Its wierd because part of my job is to create a sort of bureacracy...a sort of system for things in my church. I spend little time with people. Its not all bad, but I don't like it, and the bigger things get, the more complicated it gets. It scares me when people start to talk about discipleship (for instance) as a system. If I get someone to come to church first, then attend a small group, and then serve a couple hours a week, then they are on pretty much there. Its almost a "push these three buttons, and pull a lever, and voila...out pops a disciple" approach. Not quite, and no one wants it to be that way, but... I been listened to some Rob Bell lately and have started to question if half the time I (and maybe other churches) are really focused too much on converting people to our church, our ministry, (our systems), and getting them involved, etc. but not as much on converting them to Christ himself and truly living out a wholistic life. Thats a great question. There is obviously a tension between the two, but I definitely lean towards personal…as I guess many people do.
Its wierd because part of my job is to create a sort of bureacracy…a sort of system for things in my church. I spend little time with people. Its not all bad, but I don’t like it, and the bigger things get, the more complicated it gets.

It scares me when people start to talk about discipleship (for instance) as a system. If I get someone to come to church first, then attend a small group, and then serve a couple hours a week, then they are on pretty much there. Its almost a “push these three buttons, and pull a lever, and voila…out pops a disciple” approach. Not quite, and no one wants it to be that way, but…

I been listened to some Rob Bell lately and have started to question if half the time I (and maybe other churches) are really focused too much on converting people to our church, our ministry, (our systems), and getting them involved, etc. but not as much on converting them to Christ himself and truly living out a wholistic life.

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